In my wildest dreams, I could not have imagined the conversation this little rant o’ mine caused recently. If anything, I truly expected an avalanche of negative comments, and I braced myself for that onslaught. But, it didn’t happen. It struck quite a chord with you all, and I thank you for all positivity!
So I thought to myself, I COULD write a post for you now about the nuances of ten different royal icing consistencies. But, it seems that these fine cookie makers (and many more) have that covered. You don’t need me for that right now.
You’re different. You like to dare me to talk about these forbidden subjects. And I fall for it.
That said, the next runaway circus elephant that has showed up in my living room is tattooed with the word discount.
Here’s a sample of that scenario:
A potential client phones and wants to place an order for, say, 100 cookies. That’s a tidy little order, you think to yourself. Before you can say “vanilla or chocolate cookies?”, the question is asked: ”Can I get a discount on this because I’m doing volume?” Which do you do:
- Become paralyzed from head to toe.
- Cave instantly by saying ‘of course’ and fumble over your words because you don’t want to lose this order, no way no how, even though you’re livid with rage.
- Calmly and sweetly tell the client that these cookies are being created expressly for them and the largest portion of the cookie costing formula is labor, and you can’t possibly discount labor, much as you might like to.
If you said ‘C’ unequivocally, then shut this thing down and go do something productive with your time.
If not……
WHY O WHY would you give a discount? Because you’re getting Trump wealthy on all these cookies you’re making? It doesn’t make much sense, does it? If you’re creating cookies especially for this client, then there’s no real reason to give a discount. It’s not like you have a big inventory of baked and decorated cookies that are sitting in your cookie warehouse, and you just have to make room for all the other cookies that need storage. No-siree. You’re making these cookies expressly for this client. And, as we went over in the last post that made my blood boil, you and I both know you’re not getting rich doing it.
What happens if you do give in and provide a discount? It could be a percentage, a few cents, maybe even a few dollars off each cookie because you believe this client is IMPORTANT! You begin the work. And, low and behold another person wants to order cookies. No mention of a discount. Hhmmm….take the order and give up overrated showers and sleep? Now you start to really get steamed because you’re working your decorating digits to the bone for less money than ever, AND turning away business.
Do not fall into this trap. Re-read #3 and repeat after me: my labor is what fuels these cookies. It is my work that you admired and made you come to me for my product. Without my labor, these cookies mean nothing. Chances are, if you explain honestly (like you’re letting them into your world) that the labor really is the biggest expense of the cookie, the client will understand, especially if that client is a small business owner, too.
It’s okay to say no and not feel guilty. You are the master of your cookie domain. But remember, once you give a particular client a discount, they will always ask for a discount. The precedent will have been set.
Ultimately, you have to answer this question: is it better to take a huge order at a discounted price that may or may not cover your costs, time and labor, or is it better to take smaller orders with a larger mark-up for the week? And have time to shower?
No matter what you decide, I have a feeling that you’re going to be answering these queries with a lot more confidence now. Reward yourself with a cookie. And send this elephant back to the circus.
Or this cake.
Awesome. Awesomely awesome.
you are so right..I think I might read this verbatim to people when they ask for a volume discount, mmm kay?
ok seriously, your posts are awesome. Thank you so much for talking about this. I’ve just been considering starting to sell my baked goods, but you’re right – it’s so daunting! I love learning from your experience!
Well said! It’s really true with any business. I work for a small company and see this over and over. Once the discount is given, there’s no going back. You can’t suddenly increase your prices without the client raising a fuss. It’s frustrating to witness, so it’s really refreshing to see someone stand up for their work and stay firm.
Also, I decorated cookies this weekend and as I was doing so, I thought of you and Callye and Bridget and Marian, and how incredible all of you are… and that by all rights, your cookies should cost about $20 each. Holy crap, it’s a TON of work and I didn’t even do elaborate cookies. Keep on doing what you do and charging a fair price for it. The people that “get it” will know that your edible works of art are worth it – and then some!
I have this problem with my cake orders too. People just don’t understand why it cost so much to make a cake. They don’t realize the time I put into my cakes and the cost of quality ingredients. Makes me soooo mad!
Bravo bravo bravo
I have been sticking my toe in the proverbial pool of starting a home baking business.(for the past 2 yrs) I have several co-workers that constantly ask “when are you going to BRING me a cake?” I find myself smiling and saying “Well I will give you a menu and you can place an order. I will be more than happy to bake you what you want.” So right now I would almost welcome the request for a discount…lol I think reading the articles and response is helping me make a big decision.
I wanted to shut down! But no, you write soo well! And no, not guilty, no discount.
I am jumping up and down for joy at reading this! THANK YOU! I run into this A LOT. Im by no means a seasoned business owner, but in the last several months I’ve had people not only ask for discounts but act insulted when I give my pricing (which as a newbie to the biz is quite lower than they would pay elsewhere!)
I never know what to say, and this articulated that! Thank you! I also skipped over to your previous elephant post and could hug you for that too!
Thank you for writing something that makes me feel more confident about my craft, my pricing, and turning down greedy people!
At the store where I worked for a decade (Bundles of Cookies) we got requests for discounts daily, not just from those ordering 100 or 1000, but those ordering 10. 10! Every day people tried bargaining. And every day we said no and moved on. We’ve had requests to purchase $6 cookies for $1! And often! The more outrageous the request, the more self-righteous and proud of our product we became, and the stronger our ability to say “no” grew. We doubted these same folks would approach big businesses with such assumptions or with such a sense of entitlement. It’s tied into assumptions of what small businesses will do to survive, and taking advantage of exactly that.
Um, clearly, I strongly agree. Hee hee.
Wonderful advice as always Gail. I really wish that you would write a book that includes all your decorating techniques for cakes and cookies along with your wise advice for anyone thinking of opening a baking business. I just know, that like your blog, it would be such an enjoyable, informative and humourous read…not to mention a best-seller as soon as it hit the shelves.
Your *elephant* cake is stunning! This would have been a perfect cake for the launch party for the cast and crew of the movie Water for Elephants.
Oh, Gail…I love when an elephant walks into your room. Back when I was taking orders, this was normally my response, “Become paralyzed from head to toe.” How did you know?
Another very hit-the-nail-on-the-head post written with class and wit. I’m so happy to know you!
PS…that cake? STUNNING!!!
Hahahaha, since when am I on your webcam…you didn’t watch long enough though. You didn’t see my after the freeze moment. I often say yes because I’m not always assertive or quick thinking enough on my feet to lie or counter, then, at 4am, wondering if I’m just insane or just plain stupid, I cry. Yes, REAL tears…
You are buliding me up to one of these…I understand the fear of being crucified. But it needs to be said, and there’s no better person.
I’m kinda thinking you oughtta name your Elephant. I like him.
And refer the non-payers to all the wonderful how-to websites out there, LOL
{betcha after making a batch or two, price will not be an issue!}
Gail, lemme hop on the back of that elephant and add this: Strangers asking for large order discounts are hard to handle and my first response is to trip over my tongue and at least offer 5% off-(which I hate.)
BUT, the real panic attack happens when your neighbor, family, friend or co-workers start asking if you could “Puleeeease” do them a favor and make cookies for this or that. Of course,they all say: money is tight, they want the family discount or best yet: I will tell “everyone” you made the cookies and give out your cards; It’ll be good for your business. Sigh.
I caved almost every time. How could I not? I, too, am a bargainer by nature. (In a former life I’m sure I lived in some exotic place, owned a market stall and was a professional haggler.) However, in this business-and in any labor intensive business-I end up barely breaking even and I get frustrated. Compliments are FANTASTIC, but money in my kid’s college or my cruise fund is pretty damn wonderful, too.
So, I’ve gotten bolder. I say: In order to fit your budget I can make them: 1. smaller 2. more simplistic 3.or do less cookies. Usually, they say, “Nooo, lets just go with the original order.” and I say “Great! I’ll add that extra special touch to them.”
I tell y’all-its tough to have to defend your time, talent, product and prices-but we all deserve it!
Thanks for putting it out there, Gail!
I just found your site from a baker on facebook. Highly impressed, your posts are hilarious! I completely understand where you are coming from on the discount thing, we don’t make cakes, but cake boxes and have been there, too.
Ahhh, thank you so much! After your last “elephant in the room” post I had a talk with my husband (who by the way has been telling me to raise my prices) about your post, and then erased all the prices from my FB page. I have not been doing this very long, but have quickly realized I am selling myself short. If I have to stay up til 3am or miss some family outing on the weekends, then I am certainly going to get paid well for it
OMG!!! Where were you last week??? I am totally living this nightmare right now and agreed to do 1650 cookies for a “very important” customer for only $1 a piece (piped and flooded) do to the “volume”. I have been working literally around the clock at the bakery and am so regretting it! You are so right- BIG lessons learned this past week!
I have wanted to start a small cookie business of my own and I know what the work is like to make flooded sugar cookies. A friend of mine asked me what I would charge per cookie and I told her, she looked at me like I was crazy. I told her how much work went into a batch and she understood then. To be honest I don’t even think what I was thinking of charging was enough, and have been wondering how to actually make a profit. (which I’m still puzzle over). I get compliments all the time on all my cookies, cakes and such and people are amazed at what I do but they have NO clue the amount of time, effort and practice that went into what I do. I think it is a side effect of mass production…I mean if Keebler can make a dozen or more cookies for sale at $2.95 why can’t I…lol. Really? If I had a whole manufacturing plant with hundreds of “elves” I guess I could sell them for less but people, when they come to you for custom cookies, want something more than mass production…they just don’t understand the supply/demand/production/time/cost equation of one person doing something beautiful for a higher price…seriously if you want a dozen cookies for $2.95 then Wal-Mart is down the road a half mile…
Here’s what you should do: Tell them that your price goes UP for large orders because of the boredom factor, but for them, yes just for them, you’ll go with flat pricing.
Jerks.
I think people just don’t realize all the work that goes into a craft product. You’re not churning these out on a cookie-making machine – where a large volume of product might be easy to churn out, and thus discount. These are hand-made items, and completely worthy of the cost you assign to them. Kudos to you for defending what you do and valuing your work.
As I read your blog a scripture came running into my head.. Luke 10:7..for the laborer is WORTHY of his hire.
As long as you are fair and respectable in your pricing you should never take a discount. The economy is bad and people are always looking for a discount but we need to be respectful of hard working people.
Just setting up my own business and your “elephant in the room” posts Have been more than useful !!!
Learning to NOT have a soft spot for friends & relatives when it comes to discounts is also another BIG THING!!!
I love your posts! Even though i don’t make lots of cookies, i know how it is like to decorate cookies..and they take up so much time from baking, making icing and to decorating it and drying it. All these are labor costs and not to mention hidden costs like electricity too!
Great post!
The nerve of people never ceases to amaze me!
You are so wonderful
Another well written post about a subject that every sugar artist has dealt with at one time or another. I’m with Paula in thinking that you need to write a book!!!
So true!! That’s why I don’t sell my bakes. It’s a lot of work, and people doesn’t want to spend money, they can’t imagine how many hours we work decorating cookies or cupcakes or cakes. Thank you Gail!!
Nilda.
http://www.completamentedulce.blogspot.com
First, I agree with #3 – flooded sugar cookies etc… are labor intensive works of art and are worth every penny (if not more) of their cost.
However~ I know a few people who are very good at living frugally and one thing that they do consistently is ask for a discount. We are all consumers and if someone asks for a discount “nicely” then there should be no offense taken, just as when the “discount” is declined, hopefully it is received with no offense taken as well.
I wish I had the “guts” to inquire about discounts more often. I would never be offended if someone said no as I would not be expecting it – however, I would be excited, if, I received a discount. To be clear, I am only referring to those people who ask nicely and react nicely when their request is declined. (Also, many people have never made a flooded sugar cookie, so how would they know how much work is involved unless it is explained to them??)
I know that I frequently tell my children that “it doesn’t hurt to ask” the worst that can happen is a “no” and you are no worse off than before you asked. — Sometimes, I wished that I followed my advice more, but I’m too afraid of people’s reactions or judgements.
Anyway, I know the point was not to “sell yourself short” and I am in TOTAL agreement… but I feel kinda bad for the “nice” person who “nicely” inquires about a discount & then they are viewed as a “nervy” cheapskate or a “jerk” expecting something for nothing. (not that there aren’t those kind of people out there) – anyway, I guess I sorta invited another elephant into the room…
I live in California and I can’t sell my cookies or anything else anyway…so I just give it away (to nice people)
however… I am asked ALL the time to donate baked items and I frequently politely decline, explaining that I just don’t have the time due to the labor intensiveness of the desired items.
I just fell into this exact trap. Someone asked if I would charge for 75 cookies. I work full-time and making cookies is a part time gig. They fully knew what I charge a dozen so I assumed they were wanting a discount. 75 cookies is a huge order for me and it doesn’t take less time to make 75 then 30 so why offer a discount? I ultimately felt guilty and offered a discount and after reading this, wish I hadn’t. Thanks so much for the post!!!
(CreationsByCassie on Facebook)
Love your post. I have fun making cookies, and i love the compliments ( it is nice after a hard work to get them, it is not only to make the cookies and decorated them but the packaging) . You are so good making cookies that i didnt think you would be exhausted after your hard work, i just admired your creativity and didnt see the person under the cookie.
My problem is not the discount, it is the minimun of cookies that it is worth it. I think i just made a mistake, little one but i guess I will learn from this…Next time I dont know if i should swich on the owen or not…
I do a lot of large orders, 250- 350 people, and I can tell you from much experience that a large order is MUCH harder to do than a dozen or so of something. If you aren’t thinking ahead, logistics will eat your lunch. The smallest task that you completely overlook when doing a regular order can become time consuming and burdensome if not planned for correctly. What about storage and packaging? Time tables must be carefully considered or you will find yourself out of time, up all night, exhausted and hysterical. Not pretty. And yes, you HAVE to block out time for these orders which often means declining other orders. None of that says “discount” to me. Offer a fair price for whatever you do. And if you do offer a discount, say for a non-profit, be sure and account for that in your business records as dollars given to chairity. Happy baking!
Well said, Betsy.